In this Bonus Conversation, we welcome Alan Hirsch into the StarfishyoU dialogue alongside Rob Wegner and Brian Johnson for a fiery deep dive into a crucial fork-in-the-road issue: the Fivefold gifts of Ephesians 4. Specifically, two competing fivefold paradigms that are shaping two very different futures for the church: The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) interpretation of the Fivefold verses the Healthy Five-Fold Vision (APEST).
One is about empowering the body. The other is about crowning a few. Same words. Different spirit.
This conversation builds on our recent article series contrasting the Christlike, decentralized fivefold vision grounded in Ephesians 4 with the hierarchical, dominionist version promoted by the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). This isn't just about theology. It’s about spiritual formation, leadership culture, and the soul of the church.
“The fivefold are the modes of Christ's royal presence in the church.” — Alan Hirsch
Two Roads Diverged: The Rise of a Forked Fivefold
The conversation opens with a foundational question: Why does the fivefold conversation feel so urgent right now?
Alan reflects on the global shift from a Christendom church model to a missionary one. In this new terrain, the shepherd-teacher binary (which he describes as a sort of HR function) simply isn’t enough to catalyze a movement. The apostolic and prophetic functions are being rediscovered because we need them to thrive in post-Christian contexts.
But there’s a tension. The same rediscovery has opened the door to distortion.
"We are seeing the fivefold weaponized. The NAR model centers on dunamis (power), exousia (authority), and gnosis (secret knowledge).
The pursuit of these things can slide into spiritual witchcraft." — Alan Hirsch
This is no small concern. Rob describes the stakes with clarity:
"One fivefold model is cruciform and Spirit-distributed. The other is Christendom on steroids."
January 6 and the Ring of Power
Brian and Rob point out that the outcomes of these paradigms aren’t theoretical—they're already forming very different kinds of disciples. In the NAR model, apostles are government figures. Prophets become decree makers with near-catechism authority. It doesn’t just lead to hierarchical churches. It fuels movements that merge faith and nationalism.
"60+ NAR leaders were present at the Capitol on January 6. That was not a random fusion of politics and religion. It was a discipling outcome." — Rob Wegner
Alan shares a chilling personal story of being recruited into a secret global NAR leadership cabal—whose goal was to "disciple nations" by taking over governments and imposing Old Testament law. Their source? The theonomy of R.J. Rushdoony.
This is not a conspiracy theory. This is a shadow movement with a real strategy. And it’s forming leaders every day.
Back to Jesus: The Christlike Fivefold
So what’s the alternative? A fivefold rooted not in status but in servanthood. Not in titles, but in gifts.
"Jesus gets the titles. We don’t." — Alan Hirsch
This model doesn't start with identity statements like "I am a prophet." It starts with Christ. It says: I'm rooted in Jesus, and these gifts are being formed in me by grace, for the sake of others. As Brian puts it:
"These are not just gifts to me—they are gifts through me."
The fruit of that approach? A culture of humility, mutuality, and shared equipping. Neediness isn't weakness—it's the soil of healthy community.
"We must recover the full fivefold to reflect the fullness of Christ." — Rob Wegner
📚 Next Steps for You
If this conversation stirred something in you, here are some ways to keep going:
Read Alan’s book 5Q or explore 5Qcentral.com
Go back to our first article in this series:
Reflect with your team: What fivefold assumptions have shaped our culture?
Drop the titles. Rediscover the gifts.
Let’s contend for a fivefold that looks like Jesus.
What are you seeing in your context? Same vocabulary, different spirit? Share your thoughts below.
Grace and peace,
The StarfishyoU Team
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