In this Bonus Conversation, Alan Hirsch and Brian Johnson join Rob for pizza, molasses-fueled dough, and a candid reflection on why the role of the apostle is at a crossroads in the Western church.
From stories of secret cabal interviews to the quiet power of hidden yeast, this conversation unpacks the tension between two radically different visions: apostles as empire-builders or apostles as humble architects of Gospel ecosystems.
👉 Companion article:
🍕 Molasses, Movements, and the Problem of the Stage
The episode opens in Brian’s kitchen, where Brian reveals his controversial secret to perfect pizza dough—molasses. As the crust rises, so does the conversation about how certain streams of charismatic and Pentecostal spirituality have been primed for a drift toward domination:
“The person on the stage, thumping around, obviously attracts certain kinds of people. It lends itself to the power play.” —Alan
Alan shares how the longing for dunamis (power) and gnosis (special knowledge) often gets mixed with a culture of deference to strong personalities. Over time, that creates an environment where apostles become “the only dude,” and accountability evaporates.
🌱 Pauline and Petrine: Two Sides of Apostolic Fire
In the article, we explore how a healthy apostolic imagination must recover both the Pauline and the Petrine:
Pauline apostles pioneer new frontiers, cross boundaries, and catalyze mission among the unreached.
Petrine apostles remissionalize what already exists, reforming and re-anchoring the people of God in their sent identity.
Alan explains:
“Paul is the hard-driving entrepreneur…he takes the risks. Peter gears home base toward mission. The reality is, you need both. One without the other is incomplete.”
Brian reflects on his own story—first pioneering “R&D skunkworks” inside a large church, then stepping into the wild with KC Underground. For leaders, it can feel disorienting to hold both instincts. But real movement requires both.
🏔️ Seven Mountains…or Seven Temptations?
Rob throws out the question of the Seven Mountains Mandate. Where is the line between faithful cultural influence and spiritual conquest?
Alan doesn’t mince words:
“Honestly, bro—it was creepy. I was being interviewed to join this secret cabal to disciple nations by imposing law.”
He goes on to distinguish between healthy presence—bearing witness in every sphere—and an unhealthy ambition to dominate every sphere.
“Jesus didn’t tell us to seize control top down in the high places of culture. He told us to take up a cross.” —Rob
Brian adds that dominion language must be reframed through the lens of Jesus, who chose downward mobility over power:
“Matthew didn’t go back to take over the tax collectors. He stayed present among them, pointing to the way of Jesus.”
🕊️ How to Walk in Healthy Apostolic Leadership
Before wrapping up, Rob asks the question on many hearts:
If someone wants to live into this healthier, decentralized, relational, generative vision of apostleship…where do they start?
Alan offers this wisdom:
“The apostolic isn’t meant to be a title. Paul says ‘Paul, an apostle,’ not ‘Apostle Paul.’ See yourself as part of a team, held accountable by the other gifts.”
Brian underscores the danger of turning any of the APEST functions into an identity:
“Find people whose identity is rooted in Jesus first. Be with them. Learn how they got there.”
Rob closes with this charge:
“When you look at people, see them with the eyes of Jesus. See the potential for a movement. Encourage them to take risks. And whatever tools you give them—keep it simple, so it can reproduce.”
📚 Next Steps
If this stirred something in you, here are a few ways to dig deeper:
Read Alan Hirsch’s The Permanent Revolution (as Alan says, “There’s still nothing quite like it.”)
Explore the Apostolic Ecosystem Assessment Tool.
Visit 5Q Central for a treasure trove of resources on APEST
And remember—movements don’t emerge through titles or control. They grow as ordinary people, grounded in Jesus, carry the Gospel into every corner of life.
🛐 “Always interpret your leadership in the pattern of Jesus.” —Alan Hirsch
💬 How is God inviting you to reimagine the apostolic in your context? We’d love to hear. Share your thoughts in the comments.
📣 Tap the share button to encourage a leader who’s walking this path.
Grace and peace,
The StarfishyoU Team
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